It’s no secret that sports journalism is a woefully male-dominated field. According to the most recent APSE report published by ESPN, only 44 women were reported to be sports columnists or reporters at the largest sports newspapers and websites (Think: ESPN, Bleacher Report, Sports Illustrated.) Only four of those women were Black. (And, ICYWW, only one was Latina and only two were Asian.) Thankfully, Cari Champion and Jemele Hill are tipping that stat in the right direction. 

The sports journalists met while working at ESPN where Champion was an anchor and reporter on “SportsCenter,” “SportsNation,” and “First Take” and Hill worked on “The Undefeated,” “SportsCenter,” and “His & Hers.” Now, the former ESPN powerhouses cover everything from sports to politics on their own weekly late-night talk show, "Cari & Jemele (Won’t) Stick to Sports," on Vice TV, showing us all that women are here to stay (and here to slay) in sports broadcasting with each episode that hits the air.

Ahead, the co-hosts and real-life friends fill us in on how they got their start, what it takes to succeed in the industry today, and why they’re holding the door open for the Black women and WOC coming up behind them.

How did you make your first dollar and what did that job teach you that still applies today?

JEMELE HILL: My first job was as a clerk in a welfare office. My grandmother was a social worker and worked out of that office, so she was able to get me a job filing welfare cases. What it taught me is that paper cuts truly suck. 

CARI CHAMPION: My first job was when I was 12 years old and I worked at a printing company. It was called Econoprint in old town Pasadena. It taught me attention to detail. It was the best lesson I ever learned as a pre-teen for a small company. My friend and I wanted a summer job and they hired us knowing we didn’t know what we were doing. We were really sloppy and didn’t take it seriously. The owner said to us this is my livelihood and you have to pay attention to the details because that can make or break your business. I remember feeling really bad because we didn’t take it seriously. From that moment on, I knew that details would always define me.

You both met at ESPN, but you left your quote-unquote dream jobs to host a late-night TV show on a mainstream network together. Take us back to the lightbulb moment—how did you come up with the idea for your weekly talk show, and what inspired you to pursue this path together?

JEMELE: When we were at ESPN, we did stuff together on social media and we would appear on each other’s television shows from time to time. There was always a positive reaction every time we did something together. We didn’t explicitly talk about doing a show together, but I think it was at the back of our minds. Finally, one day, Cari showed up at my door with a bottle of wine and a camera crew and she said, “We’re shooting something.” Neither one of us knew what it was supposed to be, but Cari thought it was important that we just get something on video that showed our chemistry and range. Cari drove this because I was involved in so many things that I hadn’t thought as deeply as she had about us working together. We felt really good about what we shot, but never really took the show out to pitch it. But we told a mutual friend about how we wanted to work together and she floated the idea to her contacts at Vice. We had a couple of conversations with them, and the next thing I know, we have a weekly late-night talk show.

CARI: I think Jemele and I, as journalists, always wanted to tell the truth and share stories we felt were important. When we could no longer do that, at different points in our lives, we branched out. How we came up with the concept was “borne” out of our friendship and natural chemistry. I think we both knew that we would work together someday but we did not know in what capacity. When this opportunity presented itself, we couldn’t pass it up. The summer before we got our own television show, while I was still working at ESPN, I went to Jemele’s to shoot a pilot. We didn’t know where it would ultimately land, but when Vice came along, it felt like a natural fit. 

Entrepreneurship is all about taking calculated risks. What’s the most pivotal risk you’ve taken, and how did it change your path?

JEMELE: All of this started with my decision to leave ESPN in 2018. I knew I wanted the next iteration of my career to be about me having ownership over my talent and a stake in whatever I did. The year before I left for ESPN, me and my best friend, Kelley Carter, a fellow journalist, started a production company. Our goal was to really get that off the ground once I left ESPN. But I had a plan and a process that I went through because I wanted a very specific foundation. I wanted flexibility and autonomy and I made it clear to everyone I worked and collaborated with that those were the two most important things to me. I started with writing for The Atlantic, narrating a documentary that was executive produced by LeBron James, pivoting to the podcast space and forming an alliance with Spotify, beginning to shop projects through the production company, signing a book deal, and involving myself in a number of other projects that allowed me to use my versatility. Everything I did was in concert, not conflict. That was by design. 

CARI: The most calculated risk that I have taken was walking away from a job that paid me very well and that allowed me to work on a highly visible platform. The job was a dream job for any sports journalist. I knew there were stories that I needed to tell in an unapologetic way. The only way that could happen was if I decided to create my own business. For example, starting my own production company, being a freelance journalist, and working with an independent network. All of those things allowed me to have the freedom to tell stories that mattered. 

2020 presented everybody around the globe with new, unprecedented challenges. How did you #FindNewRoads + switch gears towards your new version of success?

JEMELE: The biggest change occurred with my podcast. I had studio space and my in-person interviews with notable guests were staples of the show. When the pandemic first hit, I had just wrapped up the first season of my podcast so I was lucky that I had some time to think about how we were going to adjust before the second season began. We soon pivoted to everything being over Zoom and me recording all the podcasts from home. I hadn’t recorded any of my podcasts from home before, and what I soon realized is that my podcast operation was much leaner and more efficient when I was doing everything remotely. I didn’t need the studio anymore and doing interviews over Zoom didn’t impact their quality. As we got deeper into the pandemic and the realization set in that everyone was going to be home for a while, my talent director was able to book guests that probably wouldn’t have been available had we been doing things our normal way. Beyond just the podcast, I discovered I was able to do far more because travel was no longer an issue. I had been trying to limit my speaking engagements on the East Coast since I’m in Los Angeles, but with everything going remote, I don’t have to limit myself geographically. 

CARI: 2020 has been very revealing, and it has forced us to be better as human beings. A #newroad is easy to find in this current climate because 2020 refuses to let us live in a lie. What I mean by that is certain traditions in this country have gone unchallenged, and this summer of racial reckoning shined a light on the history of wrongdoings. For me, it was easy to find a new road because all I wanted to do was tell stories that were truthful and unapologetic. I believe that authenticity, kindness, and the quest for equality are always important and good for any business. It wasn’t difficult for me to sell the dream of being honest, authentic, and advocating for equality. Those things are invaluable and I believe people want to be in business with people who do the right thing.

You are making a difference and pushing your industry forward. How do you hope it inspires other young Black women to follow in your footsteps and move past societal roadblocks to pursue their path?

JEMELE: I hope young Black girls and women look at us and expand their possibilities. So often we limit ourselves or begin to confine ourselves to someone else’s narrow view. My last few career moves were things I never anticipated or thought of, and I realized that part of the reason I didn’t see some of this coming was because I was unintentionally limiting myself. As Black girls and women, so often we talk ourselves out of our wildest dreams. We minimize ourselves because we fear intimidating others or being rejected because of our brilliance and excellence. We have to reach a point where our desire to be our best is greater than our self-doubts. 

CARI: I believe that my only real job in life is to hold the door open for young Women of Color. If I am inspiring people as a result that is great, but my end goal is to see women who look like me get the respect, opportunities, and glory they deserve.

Going after what you deserve in life takes confidence and guts. Does confidence come naturally to you or did you have to learn it? What advice can you share for women on cultivating confidence and going after their dreams?

JEMELE: Confidence comes through experience and wisdom. I am fortunate to have played sports in high school, so I was able to gain confidence and high self-esteem through sports. In sports, you get better through repetition. I played fast-pitch softball in high school. At one time, I wasn’t good at turning double plays, but the more I practiced it and did it in live games, the more confidence I gained. It wasn’t long before it became second nature. So what I would say to young women is that you’re not born as an expert on everything. Life is like learning a trade. You get better at it, the more you do it. 

CARI: I think it takes time to develop your voice and to develop confidence. I think the two go hand in hand. It’s not one particular event, it’s not one interaction, it’s not one job or one person that can help you develop your confidence and develop your voice. It’s a series of events, a series of yeses, a series of no’s, and a series of failures. You become the sum total of all your experiences. Those experiences help you develop confidence. 

What is the biggest challenge to achieving success in life?

JEMELE: The biggest challenge is enjoying success, and actually celebrating what you’ve done. Most highly successful people are very hard on themselves. They hate to lose more than they love to win. It’s what makes them great. The problem is that when you don’t take time to celebrate yourself, you miss an important part of the journey. 

CARI: The biggest challenge for me is making sure that I don’t allow myself to get in my way. What I mean by that is, I have to constantly remember that I am the only person that can stop myself from winning in life. I am the only person that can talk myself out of being successful. At the end of the day, I am my own competition. 

When you separate yourself from your job title and the bells and whistles of your business or career, who are you and what do you like to do?

JEMELE: I’m pretty normal. Because I’m no longer at a sports network and don’t have to watch as many sports as I used to, I’m getting in on all the reality television that some of my friends have been enjoying for years. I just started watching “Real Housewives of Potomac.” My husband got me hooked on the entire “Love & Hip Hop” franchise. I’m a big fan of “Below Deck” and “Below Deck Mediterranean.” My dream is to do recon for Jon Taffer on “Bar Rescue.” I also love reading and find myself reading all sorts of memoirs that I never thought I’d be interested in. I recently read Demi Moore’s memoir, which was fantastic. I’m also a shameless Isabel Wilkerson fan and her latest book, “Caste,” is easily the best book I read last year. I’m never going to stop learning or absorbing. It’s my favorite thing to do. I also learned how to make the perfect omelet during the pandemic. I’m very proud of that. 

CARI: I am a person who enjoys giving to others. I am a woman who enjoys being generous with my time, my friends, and my family. I also love to drink wine. I love to watch dramatic television shows with my dog Coco. I would like to say that I love working out but I don’t. I do it because I want to stay sexy, LOL.

How have you remained true and authentic to who you are and what advice can you share for women who are struggling with that?

JEMELE: I remained authentic just by pure stubbornness and laziness. I’m not a good enough actor to change who I am to suit other people. That also takes a lot of energy. I’ve also learned that before you join any company or take any job, period, you have to know who you are before you walk in the door. If you don’t, you’ll find yourself compromising who you are just to maintain status within that organization. You won’t be yourself because you’ve allowed where you are to dictate who you are. 

CARI: I think we all struggle with remaining true and authentic in some capacity but your people—your friends, family, and loved ones—should keep you honest. If you surround yourself with a bunch of yes men and women, you’ll never know if your authentic or remaining true to yourself.  

For those who haven’t started a business (or are about to) what advice do you have?

JEMELE: Make sure you have the right people advising you and that you set a standard of expectation. I’ve seen a lot of talented people who’ve had their businesses ruined or they weren’t able to get them off the ground because they weren’t surrounded by the right people. Also, ask questions. Don’t let your ego keep you silent. If you don’t understand something, speak up, and make them explain it to you until you do understand it. It’s your business and it’s your reputation. You have to be extremely protective of both.

CARI: The most important decision you need to make when you begin a business is what is the plan? You need a plan A, plan B, and a plan C. The second most important element in starting a business is making sure there is passion involved in what you are trying to create, build, or develop. If you are not passionate and it’s not a labor of love, you will never be successful. Success isn’t always monetary. Success can also be watching your dream come to life. 

It’s easy to celebrate the wins, but how do you handle failure or when something hasn’t worked out for you?

JEMELE: I interviewed Kobe Bryant a few years ago and he told me something that stuck with me. He told me that there was no such thing as failure, and while that might sound crazy to some people, Kobe was right. If you miss the mark, you just do it again, and you continue to do it until you get things right. You can learn valuable lessons from not reaching your goals. These lessons are an important part of the process because that’s where the real growth occurs. 

CARI: From the onset, I am very competitive and I hate to lose. When something doesn’t work out in my favor, I try to understand the missteps or misunderstandings that led to the failed outcome. Then, I immediately start to journal about how I can repair, move forward, or build upon the perceived loss. 

What is the biggest work challenge or mistake you’ve faced? What did you learn from it?

JEMELE: My biggest challenge is spreading myself too thin. I really need to learn how to say “no” because if I don’t I’m going to burn out. I don’t want to do that. I’m always preaching to others to value their time and I desperately need to follow my own advice. I need to learn that it’s okay to preserve my own energy and I don’t always have to offer an excuse if I don’t want to do something. “No” is a complete sentence.

CARI: My biggest challenge in any workspace is getting out of my own way. Oftentimes, I don’t know when to pull back. I care too much at times about situations and or people. As result, I get frustrated when I can’t change the outcome. So, the challenge for myself and all work environments is to make sure I know when to push forward and when to pull back. 

What advice do you have for other entrepreneurs? How can they achieve the same success you've experienced?

JEMELE: I don’t think anyone should be looking to do exactly what I did or experience the same success that I’ve had. They should be looking to establish their own footprint. There are people we all admire, but it’s sometimes a mistake to believe that there’s one blueprint on how to do things. I would advise people to do what works for them and not be so heavily influenced by other people’s journeys. Their journeys aren’t meant for you. Establish your own journey.

CARI: I think being an entrepreneur is for someone who is fearless. I think being an entrepreneur is for someone who is disciplined. I think being an entrepreneur is for someone who has a reckless amount of determination. The best advice that I can give to anyone stepping out on their own is to be dedicated to the impact of your work. At the end of the day, you will need to have a fearless approach, you will need to be disciplined in all endeavors, and you will also have to be okay with “no” but respond with a reckless amount of determination. 

If you could go back to the beginning of your career journey—with the knowledge you have now—what advice would you give yourself?

JEMELE: I wouldn’t change a single decision I’ve made, but I would go back and boost my confidence. When you’re young and just getting into the business, you’re insecure about everything. I would just encourage myself to be bolder and braver. 

CARI: Be okay with being patient. I often rushed to get to the end goal but I realize now that the end goal is a work in progress. What that means is you will never be satisfied, you will always want more, and you will always be looking for the next adventure.

Fill in the blanks:

When I feel fear, I…

JEMELE: Think deeply about where the fear is coming from. More often than not, it’s coming from an insecure place and that helps me realize that what I’m concerned about is baseless.

CARI: I embrace it.

The best career advice I always give is…

JEMELE: Control what you can control. 

CARI: Be dedicated to a mission, not an entity. 

To be successful, you need to be…  

JEMELE: Flexible.

CARI: Carefree.

Three qualities that got me to where I am today are…

JEMELE: 1) Working hard work, 2) being prepared, and 3) convincing people to invest in me by selling it as a win for them.

CARI: A healthy amount of self-esteem, a genuine curiosity of people, places, and things, and my ability to remain authentic in all situations.

The change I’d like to see in my industry is…

JEMELE: Black women being put in positions to succeed. Too often we are put in winless positions.

CARI: Requiring journalists to be committed and dedicated to telling the true story without needing to be afraid of the consequences.