Photo: Create & Cultivate
On Saturday, June 13, we hosted our second digital stay-at-home summit, Summer Camp. Thousands of attendees from all over the world joined us around the virtual campfire for a jam-packed day of networking (Slack was on fire!), learning new skills (hello, content marketing funnels), and listening to inspiring conversations from a diverse range of CEOs, entrepreneurs, content creators, small business owners, and experts in their fields.
We covered everything from launching a product to starting a podcast to jumping onto TikTok with some of the best in the biz. Trinity Mouzon Wofford, Farnoosh Torabi, Melanie Elturk, Brittany Xavier, Brad Goreski and more bosses dropped some serious knowledge throughout the day. If you missed out on the fun (or if you just want to relive the magic), you’re in luck because we captured the most memorable moments for you, so read on!
(Psst… If you’re having serious FOMO, join Create & Cultivate Insiders to get unlimited access to all of our Digital Summer Camp content including video recordings of every panel and workshop download in C&C history.)
How Danielle Fishel Karp Went From Entertainer to Clean-Beauty Entrepreneur
“
I really am behind the keyboard the way it appears that I am. It’s my picture, my name, and my voice—it really is me.”
—Danielle Fishel Karp
Panelist:
Danielle Fishel Karp | Actor, Director, Producer, & Entrepreneur
Moderator:
Sacha Strebe | Editorial Director, Create & Cultivate
On becoming a director...
“I didn't know I wanted to be a director until we went back to Girl Meets World and I realized I felt very, very protective of the kids on the show.”
“Kids relate to me in a way that they wouldn't a director that had never been an actor.”
On launching a transparent beauty brand…
“Authenticity is really important to me. It always has been, so anytime I've partnered with a brand it's either been a product that I really do love or use or it's something that really resonates with me.”
On her relationship with beauty...
“I was never really much into beauty. I'm just not. I have a few products that I love and I use them consistently and unless somebody really says, ‘No stop using that thing, use this,’ I'm going to keep using the same products I know and love. I don't like a lot of change in that regard.”
On launching a beauty brand...
“I didn't ever think I was going to do anything in the hair—or beauty world, for that matter—and then I got pregnant and I went to my first doctor's appointment and I heard my son's heartbeat.”
“All of a sudden, I really understood why women who are thinking of having a child start looking at everything they're consuming and start looking at it from the standpoint of is this good for me? Is this good for my child?”
“I went home and downloaded the Think Dirty app, and for the first time ever, I scanned all of my beauty products.”
“From the ground up, I have been involved in every step of the way.”
On being an entrepreneur...
“Acting and directing is an art form, so everything about them is subjective. It's not that way in business. Things aren't subjective.”
“I think I underestimated how much it really takes energy-wise and time-wise to launch a brand.”
On making a clean but efficacious beauty line...
“If I felt the need and a lack in the space, then other people did too.”“When I was trying to create the line, I wanted something that was as natural as it could possibly be, while also not losing any of the efficacy.”
On misinformation in the beauty world...
“Figure out what your comfort level is. Just because I'm comfortable with a product that falls somewhere on the three to four scale, doesn't mean that you are.”
On launching before COVID-19…
“We had planned five new products for this year. A lot of things have changed in 2020. I'm not sure how many of those products we’re going to be able to roll out now.”
On being close to the customer...
“One of the things I realized very quickly is that I wanted to hear everybody’s feedback, and I really wanted to take their thoughts into consideration because I'm not just making this product for myself.”
“I rely so much on being able to have a direct conversation with consumers about what to do.”
“I respond to a lot of comments and like comments through direct messages.”
"I have personally responded to I don't even know how many emails, so I am as involved as I can be without having to run every single aspect of it myself.”
“I like people to know that I really am behind the keyboard the way it appears that I am. It’s my picture, my name, and my voice—it really is me, and I think that goes a long way.”
Let's Grow: How to Build Your Following While Creating a Dedicated Community
“How can I get the right people who are very entrepreneurial excited about my brand from a very early point? And, hopefully, how can they continue to grow with the company?”
Panelists:
Trinity Mouzon Wofford | Co-Founder and CEO, Golde
Mandy Ansari | Digital Influencer & Entrepreneur
Jera Bean | Social Media Strategist and Creator, The Social Media Saloon
Aysha Harun | Content Creator
Chinae Alexander | Content Creator and Social Entrepreneur
Moderator:
Maxie McCoy | Author of "You're Not Lost"
On the phrase content is king or queen….
“What is going to get me to double-tap? We are all also consuming content as well, even if we are a content creator.” - Mandy Ansari
“Is my content inspiring? Is it empowering? Is it educating and is it entertaining? It doesn't need to be doing all of those, but the more it is doing at one time the better.” - Mandy Ansari
On identifying a need and mapping out a content strategy….
“Businesses need to think of Instagram as a business card. When a friend recommends something, one of the first things we do is go to Instagram. I like that Instagram shows more than just the highlight reel. It shows the journey and the process.” - Jera Bean
On building an engaged online community requires consistency…
“As a content creator, your personal life is your business in a sense, so taking the time to slow down is important to keep that consistency.” - Aysha Harun
“As a creator and as someone that works alone the majority of the time, to admit to themselves that, yes, I do need help.” - Aysha Harun
On building a social media following organically, without putting many resources toward marketing...
“How can I get the right people who are very entrepreneurial excited about my brand from a very early point? And, hopefully, how can they continue to grow with the company?” - Trinity Mouzon Wofford
“Surrounding yourself with those people who believe in it just as much—if not, some days, more than you do—was really my key to getting this far without taking much money.” - Trinity Mouzon Wofford
On growing your community and reaching a wider audience…
“Having a little prescriptive is helpful in moving past criticism.” - Chinae Alexander
“We can show up as humans. I haven't always had a perfect response to people who say rude things. I also have a zero-tolerance policy for it, but that's just how I am as a person. I’m just actually living my truth.” - Chinae Alexander
“My most successful content—and not in likes or comments, but in that it has moved the needle for other people—has been the days where I get up and I’m about to write something and I write it, look at it, and it makes my stomach hurt. It makes my stomach hurt because I’m scared to post it, I’m scared to say it, and I’m like, Oh, God, and I know I got something good. I know I went there, and I’ve never had someone negative attack when I went there. Because of its vulnerability.” - Chinae Alexander
Mental Health Meeting of the Minds: How to Tackle Your Anxiety and Live a Happier Life
“Rejection is objective. Rejection is from the outside. It comes from someone else saying no to you, but rejection is not failure—failure is what we think.”
—Stacy London
Panelists:
Erica Domesek | Founder, P.S. I Made This
Stacy London | Style Expert and New York Times Best-Selling Author
On collaborating...
“It's important, in my adult life, to make sure that the people around me aren't competing but are collaborative and supportive, and I think that we all need that—we need it for life in general, but we certainly need it now.” - Stacy London
On creating connections…
“To really be able to really create connection, I think it requires agency.” - Erica Domesek
On making self-care a priority…
“I just have to go back to the OG reference of when you’re on the airplane and the mask comes down and you put it on yourself before you can put it on anyone else. I just realized that I have to take care of myself before I can take care of other people.” - Erica Domesek
On dreaming big…
“This moment is the moment to dream big, in my opinion. The reason I feel that way is it does a lot to mitigate anxiety and depression—again, if you feel you have agency. Instead of feeling helpless, like the world is happening and there's nothing you can do to stop it, what I love to think about is what it's like to dream big, right now.” - Stacy London
On navigating social media right now...
“Social media has created moments of such anxiety, that is paralyzing—pre-COVID! You can mute people right now.” - Erica Domesek
On achieving personal success…
“Personal success—small, medium and large—is just as important to me.” - Erica Domesek
On handling rejection…
“Rejection is objective. Rejection is from the outside. It comes from someone else saying no to you, but rejection is not failure—failure is what we think.” - Stacy London
“We forget that rejection, for every door closed, means the door that we are supposed to go through remains open.” - Stacy London
On not comparing yourself to others...
“We forget that our scale doesn't have to be somebody else’s, and we forget our own lives because we get so involved in scrolling through other peoples.” - Stacy London
On finding real connections…
“Whether it's your business or your personal life, connection is essential, and it's not just networking to me that's not enough.” - Stacy London
“Real connection, people who you know you can count on regardless of whether you feel like a success or a failure.” - Stacy London
“Those people who see you for who you are—for the good, the bad, and the ugly and they don't turn away and they stick by you—those are the people who you are going to need throughout your life.” - Stacy London
How to Leverage Podcasting to Build Your Brand With Farnoosh Torabi
“
You have to be your biggest fan and your biggest advocate
.”
—Farnoosh Torabi
Panelist:
Farnoosh Torabi | Host of the Webby-Nominated Podcast, “So Money”
Moderator:
Sacha Strebe | Editorial Director, Create & Cultivate
On not needing to do it all…
“As someone who is in charge of your own brand, you have to think about it, I think it's worth experimenting, but you can't do it all.”
“There are a lot of things that I don't do. It feels like I do it all, but there are also so many things I don't do, which are conscious because it doesn't spark joy.”
On talking about money…
“Everybody has a story, and that story ultimately shapes how we relate to money.”
“I wanted to have bigger conversations about money that nobody would give me the bandwidth to have elsewhere because they just didn't think it was interesting, so a podcast gives me the opportunity to expand on topics that you really can't find elsewhere.”
On tapping into your audience…
“You don't know what you don't know so ask your audience, they will tell you.”
“You have to be your biggest fan and your biggest advocate.”
“That's the secret, don't pretend like you have to know the answer, your listeners will tell you what they want.”
On launching a podcast...
“You have to be really clear on your editorial hook, What is the voice? And part of that exercise is listening to a lot of other shows in your category.”
“The key to make this really easy is streamlining as much of the process as possible.”
On staying informed...
“Knowledge is your power. If you have answers to your questions, then you will know where to go next.”
On getting down to business...
“This is not just a passion project, it’s a growth engine for your brand and your business.”
TikTok 101—Everything You Need to Know About This Buzzy New Platform
“Do what you like to do. Don’t feel pressured to do what everyone else is doing.”
—Kiitan Akinniranye
Panelists:
Brittany Xavier | Global Style Influencer
Kiitan Akinniranye | Content Creator & Founder, Atarah Avenue
Blanca Garcia | Beauty & Lifestyle Influencer
Joyce Chun | Creator Marketing, TikTok
Moderator:
Reesa Lake | Partner and Executive Vice President, DBA
On following trends…
“You should pay attention to trends, but don’t let them rule your content creation.” - Kiitan Akinniranye
On jumping onto the platform…
“It’s an outlet for me to express different parts of my personality that I don’t express on Instagram and YouTube.” - Kiitan Akinniranye
On just having fun…
“Just have fun with it—that’s what TikTok’s all about.” - Kiitan Akinniranye
“I think the reason TikTok has taken off is because people are just being themselves, having fun, and not taking it too seriously.” - Kiitan Akinniranye
“Just have fun and don’t think too much about it.” - Blanca Garcia
On staying true to yourself…
“Anyone can tell the difference between someone trying to be someone else versus someone really being their authentic self.” - Joyce Chun
“Do what you like to do. Don’t feel pressured to do what everyone else is doing.” - Kiitan Akinniranye
“It’s really important to stick to what you want to do and show your personality. That way, whatever views a video gets, you’re still proud of that piece of work.” - Brittany Xavier
On creating content…
“The most important thing is that you enjoy what you’re creating.” - Joyce Chun
“No matter what anyone else does, you can have your own unique spin on it.” - Kiitan Akinniranye
“Create content that you enjoy, and most likely, other people will enjoy it as well.” - Kiitan Akinniranye
“When creating my videos, I try to have a take-home value or some resource that they can get from the video.” - Brittany Xavier
On turning TikTok into a revenue stream…
“Start creating content, and the revenue will come.” - Brittany Xavier
On checking metrics…
“I always remind creators that TikTok is a video-based platform. It’s built to democratize content so that anyone who has 0 followers to a million followers can have a chance to be seen no matter their size.” - Joyce Chun
“It really is a quality over quantity game.” - Joyce Chun
“Videos don’t ever expire, so you’ll notice that older ones are continuing to be spread and that’s a good indicator of what other content you can do going into the future.” - Brittany Xavier
“I check watch time to see when people are dropping off and that helps me figure out what I’m doing wrong in a video.” - Kiitan Akinniranye
“I try to take myself out of it, so that I'm not super invested in the outcome because it takes away from how I feel about content creation.” - Kiitan Akinniranye
Uncapping Your Self-Love: A Candid Conversation With Today's Top Beauty and Lifestyle Experts on How to Cultivate Confidence and Self-Love Both Inside and Out During the Social Media Age
“Knowledge is power and that gives you confidence.”
—Melissa Alatorre
Panelists:
Kandee Johnson | Creator, Beauty Authority, & OGXpert
Jessica Franklin | Lifestyle Influencer & OGXpert
Melissa Alatorre | Beauty & Lifestyle Influencer
Moderator:
Jaclyn Johnson | CEO & Founder, Create & Cultivate
On tapping into your voice on social media...
“Always talk like you’re talking to your best friend. When you’re your most comfortable, when you’re your quirky, weird, unique, different self, that is going to be the you that people will fall in love with.” - Kandee Johnson
On getting real with your audience…
“Other people are going through it too.” - Jessica Franklin
“From posting my struggles, I realized everyone has them and people want to relate.” - Jessica Franklin
“People can relate and feel like they’re not alone.” - Jessica Franklin
On being vulnerable with your followers...
“As long as my content is helpful, I’m willing to share it, even if it’s embarrassing.” - Melissa Alatorre
“I recently started opening up about my struggles with IBS and the response has just been incredible. I don’t mind sharing something embarrassing as long as it helps someone.” - Melissa Alatorre
On having grace for yourself during COVID-19…
“Go easy on yourself. If you have a day where you’re not productive, that’s okay.” - Kandee Johnson
“It’s okay to feel stuck. It’s okay to feel some type of way about this situation because we’re all going through it together.” - Melissa Alatorre
On monetizing your account without alienating your audience…
“I have to genuinely like and use the product.” - Jessica Franklin
“If you don’t love the product and it’s not a genuine review and something that you would actually use, it’s not going to resonate with your audience.” - Jessica Franklin
On dealing with negative comments…
“You can get thousands of people saying wonderful things to you all day long, and it’s the one awful one that just gets to you.” - Kandee Johnson
“A miserable person—whether they’re upset, stressed out hurt—whatever the content of their heart is, that’s what’s going to spew out of them.” - Kandee Johnson
“If I’m going to reply, it’s going to be a reply with a lot of love. It’s never going to be a snapback or a clap back.” - Kandee Johnson
“It’s usually better to ignore it and leave that alone and go about your day and focus on the people that love you and do have positive things to say.” - Kandee Johnson
“If you’re following me just to be negative and give negative energy to my page, there’s no point. If I can, I’ll just ignore it, block, and just keep moving.” - Jessica Franklin
“You need boundaries on social media because everyone thinks they have privilege and access to you and that they can say whatever they want and that you’re not human.” - Jessica Franklin
“Your platform is like your house, and you wouldn’t invite these people to come into your house and say these disrespectful and rude things.” - Kandee Johnson
On finding the silver lining…
“When you’re at your worst, at your most rock bottom, you have nothing to lose, so you can start any new ideas.” - Kandee Johnson
On cultivating confidence…
“Confidence comes from knowledge.” - Melissa Alatorre
“Knowledge is power and that gives you confidence.” - Melissa Alatorre
Design Darlings: How These Design Enthusiasts Are Inspiring Millions
“If your heart is pulling you in one direction, go for it.”
—Christina Martinez
Panelists:
Breegan Jane | Interior Designer
Monika Hibbs | Creative Director and Founder, Monika Hibbs
Christina Martinez | Life and Style Blogger, New Darlings
Angela Tafoya | Editorial Director, Lonny
Moderator:
Sacha Strebe| Editorial Director, Create & Cultivate
On diversifying your revenue streams…
“When you chase these passions with purpose, it can lead you to the openings that the universe is trying to create for you, even when the world says, Don't do it, put your energy here.” - Breegan Jane
“My life, and a lot of my goals, come from wanting to empower other people and being an employer.” - Breegan Jane
“It's really important to me to give other girls, women, men, anyone, the opportunity to try something, be good at it, fail at it, enjoy it.” - Breegan Jane
On taking a leap of faith…
“If your heart is pulling you in one direction, go for it.” - Christina Martinez
“It works as long as you are willing to put in the work.” - Christina Martinez
On growing an audience authentically…
“I think the honest voice is really the true voice of what people wanna hear and they wanna hear your story.” - Monika Hibbs
On how content strategy has pivoted…
“What can we offer people right now that feels like it's a definitive resource for what they’re going through?” - Angela Tafoya
“It's not solely providing aspirational content—which we still do, obviously—but thinking about how we can be there for our audience in a way that feels cognizant of what’s going on.” - Angela Tafoya
On staying true to who you are but also building a business that makes money…
“Look at your audience like a friendship. Some of your friends know everything, right? You’ve got that girlfriend you can call that you’re like, This is what's really happening. Then, you have other friends that are parents at school that kind of know your life and don’t know your middle name. And so, where your comfort level is with social media I think you can kind of filter it that way and each friend can be different. FB is different than IG, different than TikTok.” - Breegan Jane
On knowing when it’s time to make your first hire..
“I started to realize that I was missing partnership opportunities in my email because I just couldn't get to them. I realized really quickly that I was actually losing revenue and beating myself up and really working myself down.” - Monika Hibbs
“Once you release and know that you can't do it on your own, that's really where the growth comes in.” - Monika Hibbs
On the best design tip…
“Zero in on how a room makes you feel, even digitally when you’re looking at a space. Really try to dissect what it is that you like about that space.” - Angela Tafoya
Ready, Set, Launch: How to Strategize a Perfect Product Launch
“You have to think very long term on how you want the brand to evolve but also stay the same over the years.”
—Melanie Elturk
Panelists:
Dianna Cohen | Founder and CEO, Crown Affair
Janessa Leone | CEO and Designer, Janessa Leone
Abigail Cook Stone | Founder and CEO, Otherland
Éva Goicochea | Founder & CEO, maude
Cass Dimicco | Founder, Aureum Collective
Melanie Elturk | CEO & Co-Founder, Haute Hijab
Moderator:
Sacha Strebe| Editorial Director, Create & Cultivate
On launching a product...
“Anytime that you're looking to launch a business or a product, it's so important to know in your gut that you cannot be everything to everyone.” - Dianna Cohen
On building communities alongside customer bases…
“More than ever, we are realizing the power of niche audiences and people being genuinely passionate not only as a community member but also as a customer.” - Dianna Cohen
On reaching your target audience…
“I think the best things come out of natural, organic, real relationships with people” - Janessa Leone
On how to match an unmet need…
“The extra verve of the added touch is all about a little bit of extra effort that you put into something that takes it from good to great and elevates the everyday.” - Abigail Cook Stone
On the buying journey…
“We went through a really big exercise on who the audience was and how we speak, look, act, feel.” - Éva Goicochea
On validating and testing your audience…
“It's so important that you really can build an entire persona of what your brand represents—without even showing the product—months before you're about to launch.” - Cass Dimicco
“Your customer and your audience will tell you what's working and what's not.” - Cass Dimicco
On having a clear brand story…
“I know what the product is, I know that there is this highly underserved market, so what’s the brand story going to be around this product?” - Melanie Elturk
“We want this to be a legacy brand and not just spur of the moment, emotional decisions yet these are very important—down to color—that you have to think very long term on how you want the brand to evolve but also stay the same over the years.” - Melanie Elturk
On challenges…
“During challenging times and previous recessions, people do tend to go to brands that they already have an emotional connection with. That being said, in the land and world of new consumer brands, you don't have to scale back if you have not scaled.” - Dianna Cohen
On launching small…
“You want to see how your customers are buying things, so it's helpful to have an edit at first and then be able to iterate upon that.” - Éva Goicochea
“If founders are just trying to get their footing and understand if this is something they want to do, I suggest you really incorporate creative problem solving into every single roadblock that you see in front of you and smash through that to the next one. Use it as an opportunity to learn, to delegate, to outsource.” - Melanie Elturk
On building brand loyalty…
“At the end of the day, that is going to be what your business is: your customers, your community. If you can build that, they will buy whatever you're selling.” - Dianna Cohen
How to Lead With Resilience and Empathy
“Even if you’re afraid, speak up. Use your voice. Keep raising your hand.”
—Julie Smolyansky
Panelist:
Julie Smolyansky | CEO, Lifeway
Moderator:
Jaclyn Johnson | CEO & Founder, Create & Cultivate
On stepping into the role of CEO…
“Failure was not going to be an option.”
“I worked really hard. I used the business as a place where I could put my mourning and grieving pain and do something with it.”
“I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it.”
“Tough times are where you’re called to rise—and you either rise or you don’t. Sink or swim.”
On honing her vision for the company…
“Educating people around gut health has been my mission from day one.”
“You have to tell your story over and over again. You have to tell the marketplace over and over again.”
“We’ve doubled down on advertising and marketing during some of the more troubling moments of crisis like 2008 for example when the economy was flattering, we saw that as an opportunity and we doubled our advertising and that paid off. Some of our biggest growth happened during the recession.”
“We’ve adapted at every point in time and every point in our history.”
“We’re constantly learning and adapting and evolving.”
“What I know for sure is that what everyone wants is health. They want health, they want wellness, they want to feed their families good, nutritious food.”
On scaling a team…
“If I can delegate and let other people take the plan and execute it, it’s much more empowering for them and more fun, and then I can focus on the big picture.”
“It was a slow process of giving up that control because I was so used to doing it all myself.”
“It’s about working on your business, not in your business.”
On her advice for fellow female leaders...
“Even if you’re afraid, speak up. Use your voice. Keep raising your hand.”
“No one gives you power, you just have to take it.”
“If you’re not at the table, you’re the meal.”
“Keep being brave. Bravery is a muscle. It’s like your gut, it’s like your bicep—you keep using it, you keep getting stronger.”
On doing good during COVID-19...
“Lifeway was originally started with this idea to feed people.”
“My family survived war and famine and disease and all sorts of things in the Soviet Union during a painful time in history, so feeding people has always been super important to us.”
“30% of kids in the Chicagoland public school system are food insecure and rely on the school system’s lunch as their one nutritious meal a day—and suddenly they weren’t going to have it overnight.
“We immediately started unlocking and deploying our emergency response plan to reach those communities most impacted.”
“There is no more sacred purpose than to feed people and bring them wellness.”
“We’ve been working 24/7 just to keep food on people’s tables.”
On finding the silver lining through COVID-19...
“This crisis has shown us how vulnerable we are and how in-lock and connected we are to each other. Our safety and security and health depend on each other. We are interlocked with each other.”
“We’re starting to see that we are all really in it together and that we can show up for each other.”
On advice for anyone struggling during COVID...
“Don’t stop. Keep going. Hold your head up high. Find moments of joy for yourself. Trust the process, trust the universe. Trust that all of this is happening not to you but for you.”
Evening Keynote: A Conversation With Brad Goreski & Jaclyn Johnson
“
From my experience, starting at the bottom and learning everything was so valuable.”
—Brad Goreski
Panelist:
Brad Goreski | Celebrity Stylist and TV Personality
Moderator:
Jaclyn Johnson | CEO & Founder, Create & Cultivate
On falling in love with fashion from an early age…
“Fashion was my way of communicating who I was.”
On interning for Vogue and W…
“Interning was the most valuable experience I ever had.”
“From my experience, starting at the bottom and learning everything was so valuable.”
“I learned so much because I was responsible for so much.”
On starring on The Rachel Zoe Project…
“That show was the first of its kind. It was the first time that the curtain had been pulled back on the world of celebrity styling.”
“I almost didn’t take the job because I didn’t want to be on the reality show.”
“People were watching me learn the job.”
On taking the leap to start his own business…
“I got Jessica Alba as my first client, but there were two months where no one was calling, no one was asking me to style them.”
“One of the best pieces of advice I got was, ‘The only way you’re going to have a successful business is if you learn how to delegate.’”
“I literally didn’t make any money for my first two years.”
“Most of my business has been through word of mouth, so it’s always good to be easy to work with and it's always good to be available.”
On earning accolades and taking them in stride...
“In any job, you want to be on some sort of best-dressed list of whatever you do.”
On developing the traits to succeed as a celebrity stylist...
“You have to learn how to work under pressure really fast and you need to be a quick problem solver.”
On overcoming shyness...
“My shyness is overcome because I remember that kid who so desperately wanted to be here. Now that I’m here, I don’t want to squander any opportunity.”
On his best advice for his younger self…
“Continue following your heart no matter if you think it’s going to lead where you think it’s going to lead.”
“Let the script play out the way it was written and not try to interfere with it too much.”
Don’t miss Michelle Pfeiffer, Miranda Kerr, Beatrice Dixon, and More at our Digital Beauty Summit on Saturday, July 25.
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